Talk:Teleological argument

Rephrase needed

for example, every two hydrogen atoms are ordered to form a compound with one oxygen atom. No, they're not: two atoms can bind to each other to form H₂, two pairs of atoms can bond with two carbon atoms to form ethane, etc. I don't know exactly what this sentence is saying, so I don't want to change it myself. 2001:BB6:4734:5658:5D1D:3796:2525:6D9B (talk) 15:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I've changed it, since nobody else did. 2001:BB6:4734:5658:D21:6744:8DBD:A8B3 (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Does anyone else think this whole article misses the point?

Upon cursory review of this article, it appears the teleological argument is being lumped in with the watchmaker analogy and intelligent design. The teleological argument deals with unintelligent objects or beings acting toward a certain end unthinkingly. But it seems like it is being confused with the idea that God intervened at times to change something or with the argument from complexity. I think this article misses the entire point, but I would like public comment before I go editing all willy-nilly. Kringga talk 16:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Over its history this article (and others related to it) have sometimes been difficult to edit because of the high political priority many Wikipedians give to making sure that Wikipedia makes all the definitions line up with the way they are recently used in specific American culture war debates which were hot when Wikipedia was young. That may be having an effect on whatever it is which is concerning you. But here are some questions:

• Do you have a good source for the idea that the teleological argument is specifically about unintelligent objects or beings acting toward a certain end unthinkingly? I can see how it might be argued, but I don't think I've ever seen the unintelligent aspect being emphasized and I am not sure why we would need to do that. For most readers it might become very confusing, without really changing the meaning?
• It is also not so clear how this would make it different from the watchmaker argument and "intelligent design" in the broad old sense? Can you explain the distinction(s) you are making?
• It does sound right to me that this article should not imply that the teleological argument is "the idea that God intervened at times to change something". (I guess that is a reference to Intelligent Design in those specific recent culture wars debates?) But does this article imply that definition? Can you explain where?
• What are you seeing in the article which confuses it with "argument from complexity"? Are you sure this is worth changing?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:58, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

ID movement and teleological-argument theistic apologetics are not synonymous but they overlap FatalSubjectivities (talk) 14:40, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree the article (starting with the first line) conflates an argument using teleology (the end) with one based on complexity or design which is deontology (the means) and not teleology. The article also narrows it as if such arguments are always about the existence of God.

But I’m also thinking such confusion of the means with the ends is so common as to be the norm, and that the existence of God association is so far the greatest WP:WEIGHT of coverage that arguments which actually use teleology would not get much space here. Perhaps it would better suit to have See Also links to such areas, e.g. Teleological behaviorism, Teleological ethics, Teleological language in biology, and Teleological interpretation (law). It might be nice to have an explanation for the abstract inductive vs deductive approach, but the WEIGHT just isn’t there.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 21:33, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Whatever we do it will need to be based on a balancing of the different approaches found in reliable sources, and we also have to keep in mind that there is a quite different article called "Intelligent design" which focuses on the specific story of a version of this argument which we know from recent culture war debates. Currently this article is covering all the older variants. It is not really clear from your remarks what types of changes you would like to see, and how you would source them, but I take it you want the differences to be more clear. I have not looked at it for a while but I believe one problem is that reliable sources tend to use these terms in different ways. Currently the discussions of different approaches is split up chronologically, looking at specific proponents etc.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:27, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

User:Andrew Lancaster my comment said the only option I could see was adding some See Also to more technically correct uses of the term. Mistakenly saying teleology is design or that natural theology is it are so common as to be the WEIGHT here. It does not matter that academically the teleological argument is literally a phrase meaning talk about the end result. It does not matter that teleology is nothing about design nor about complexity. It does not matter that natural theology has many parts and only one is Aquinas use of a teleological argument as one of his proofs for the existence of God. It does not matter if Socrates use of it was about an unintelligent acorn. The association by many repetitions, however technically mistaken it may be for philosophy, is so dominant that I cannot see changing the body of this article and we just accept it does not match academic works. (e.g. here or here or others.) Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:45, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

I understand that like me you aren't making any big proposals at the moment, but I was wondering if I could tease a more detailed explanation out of you of what your comments really mean in detail. Maybe it is relevant to other articles in the long term. I realize that Aquinas distinguished several different arguments but some of them seem to be equivalent. (Or that is a frequent reading.) Interesting that you cite Sedley. I've also tended to see him as a good source here. Can you point to a line or passage which explains your point?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

User:Andrew Lancaster I had no particular line in mind. In general, my point is that the literal meaning of “teleological argument” is just an argument based on teleology, and I offered some candidates of such for See Also links that are not about proving God exists. The most famous teleological argument is the Quinta Via of Aquinas in Five Ways (Aquinas), which is about proving God exist and became known as “the” teleological argument, perhaps confused as if that’s the only one. As said at Five Ways (Aquinas) even that one has nothing to do with design or complexity. Hopefully this helps. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 07:16, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Just my thoughts. No response necessary unless you think I am totally misunderstanding. Design means "intention" in these discussions, or in other words it means there is not only intelligence but also that the intelligences has ends (teloi). Complexity comes into the discussion because when complexity is observed which is not just a random mess, but something which looks organized and systematic, this supposedly implies that intelligence with ends. So no matter what we think of them, it is hard to handle these arguments separately because they are so commonly linked in such ways.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:50, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Mmm, think design or intelligence may or may not be present in individual cases of teleological arguments, but to be clear these are not the teleology part and a teleological argument may exist with one or both or neither. The acorn or other Teleological language in biology has no intelligence nor design, but looks at a final end (telos) anyway. The Teleological behaviorism and Teleological ethics has an intelligence looking at that final ends (result), but without a specific design of a mechanism. And of course one can have a design or intent without complexity. I don’t think these are inherently linked, but that since they are commonly confused and mistakenly said to be the same that the article cannot ignore that de facto they are taken as synonyms. cheers Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:59, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Minor description.

@Andrew Lancaster, The body does not necessarily have to state it. It's common sense, really, regarding how teleology works.(WP:CSIOR) It relies on reason rather than revelation. Whether the reasoning is convincing or unconvincing is another matter entirely, but the inherent nature of the argument is obvious.

The lead already has this line "While the concept of an intelligence behind the natural order is ancient, a rational argument that concludes that we can know that the natural world has a designer, or a creating intelligence which has human-like purposes, appears to have begun with classical philosophy."

Nonetheless, here are few sources: Though, I would argue, we don't need to put the sources on the lead.(MOS:LEAD) 182.183.53.142 (talk) 12:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

RationalISM is clearly more than just anything involving a rational argument. It also can't be defined as an opposite of "revelation". For a start you can read the article about it on WP which you link to. Using an -ISM means we connect this argument to a specific movement within philosophy, which would I think confuse and mislead. None of the sources you cite mention the word "Rationalism", and two of them are not valid sources according to WP norms.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

In that case perhaps, we could use "is a rational argument for". And instead of linking to the movement, we could simply link rationality as a quality of the argument. That could work. 182.183.6.255 (talk) 23:08, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

That is a step in the right direction. But are there such things as deliberately irrational arguments? I mean when we say that an argument is irrational, we mean it was done wrongly, don't we? Invalid? So what is the word "rational" adding here? Do we think our readers will be confused and think that an "argument for X" might actually be an argument which deliberately aims to work in an irrational way?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 23:29, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

It's true that most arguments aim to be rational. But, I think that since we are talking about a religious argument, it underscores the argument's intention to appeal to reason and logic rather than emotion or faith alone, which is important in distinguishing it from other types of arguments for God's existence, such as fideistic or purely theological arguments. I think it clarifies this aspect for the readers early on. 182.183.6.255 (talk) 00:02, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

References

GA concerns

I am concerned that this article no longer meets the good article criteria. Some of my concerns are listed below:

• The article contains uncited statements.
• The article relies upon quotes and block quotes in some sections. This creates copyright concerns and makes the article more difficult to read and connect ideas.

Is anyone willing to address these concerns, or should this go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 19:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If GA discussions lead to every statement needing a footnote, and no blockquotes that let readers see more clearly what was said, then they are pushing for a style of writing which is the opposite of what would be considered good in high quality writing about historical or philosophical topics. If there are specific statements that deserve better citation, and your aim is to improve quality, then why not just say which statements, in a clear and concise manner? Seems easy enough.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: Sorry that I did not respond to this sooner: I did not see it on my watchlist. The good article criteria requires that every statement be supported by a citation. This does not mean every sentence needs a footnote, as a footnote can verify information in previous sentences. However, it does mean that there should be a footnote at the end of each paragraph, with some exceptions (like the lead, which usually does not have citations per WP:CITELEAD). If you would like, I can add "citation needed" tags to the article to indicate where the citations are needed.

As for the block quotes: per MOS:QUOTE "Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style and may be copyright infringement, and so most of the content should be in the editor's own words." In my opinion, this article uses too many block quotes which makes it difficult for the reader to understand the point that is trying to be conveyed in each block quote. Please ping me in responses so that I can reply more quickly. Z1720 (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Z1720 I doubt the article should ever have received GA status, but I also don't see that as an important priority. What would be far worse would be rushed deletions and tag bombing driven by formal criteria and drive-by editors not interested in the specific issues connected to the article topic and its sources. I am sure the article can and should be improved, but the two recommendations you make are too crude and rushed to be helpful. Acting quickly on them would not be a good idea. If you want to remove GA status please just do so. If you also have more detailed comments these might certainly help in the longer run. But I see no point assuming that we should rush to react on those just to save a GA status.

• The article contains a lot of citations, so tag bombing would be a very bad idea. If there are specific sentences or sections with problems, then please do the necessary work and explain those in detail. The last thing this article needs though would be an influx of pro forma B-grade citations, rushed in to save a GA status. If a controversial sentence has no citation, then there should not just be a rush to stick a footnote on it, but also careful consideration about whether the sentence is justified or needs tweaking.
• I think your block opposition to block quotes is "personal taste", and not a real WP "law". Broad guidelines like the ones you cite should be used in a sensitive and flexible way, looking at the best sources and controversies, and trying to find the best ways of explaining clearly, and avoiding misunderstandings. In the long run a better version of this article might involve fewer block quotes but removing them quickly as part of a drive to save a GA status would be a bad idea. This specific article covers a difficult and controversial topic. It has been a lot worse, and it could be a lot worse again. I do not want to say that drive-by editing is never useful, but it would always support "real editing", and by real editing I mean editing which has to be driven by the nature of the topic, including common misunderstandings and controversies, and the materials published about it. For example, for some "history of philosophy" topics, the best academic works compare and contrast the classic "block quotes". The best sources about this specific topic are in effect typically structured around a series of important quotes that secondary sources tend to interpret in different ways. Quotation of the originals is therefore often advisable. This could perhaps be done more subtly, but when they are in a rush Wikipedia editors often collect low quality sources from the internet like magpies, and these are particularly problematic for some history of philosophy topics. Such lower level works are often distorted by culture wars, and low level professional debates between academics who do not themselves spend much time on the classical sources they seek to enlist and distort for whatever their position is. If we want to discuss Aristotle then we should for example cite Aristotle experts, people whose work is often structured around block quotes, and not whichever academics are easiest to find online.

In summary I don't think that GA status should be used here to encourage rushed editing. This could easily make the article worse. I strongly prefer that discussions about the article content should be based on careful and specific discussions, looking at specific sentences and sections, and the best sources. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:23, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: I am not going to discuss each individual sentence that might need a citation on the talk page, as I do not have that much interest in this article. Per WP:V, information on Wikipedia needs to be cited, and if it is not it might be removed. I don't want to do that, as the information might be useful. Would you be able to look at the uncited statements in the article and add sources to them? Z1720 (talk) 15:19, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is made by volunteers working without a WP:deadline. When working properly they are spending time on each sentence by looking at multiple sources, and carefully weighing up the options. I have not looked at this article for a long time, and neither has anyone else as far as I can tell, and I do have other things I need to do. If you can name specific concerns then I can possibly work quickly, but if you are saying you just looked quickly and counted too few footnotes, then sorry but I don't think this is really a high priority right now. If you were to move from threatening to remove GS status, which is fine, to deleting sentences in order to make a WP:point, even when you admit not to have checked if they might be worth keeping, then I would call that disruptive editing. Drive by editors are only playing a positive role on WP if they support real editing. Imposing deadlines and making disruption threats is not going to help this type of article, so if you want to remove the GA status, please just do it. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:30, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: An article does not have to have a GA designation. If no one is actively updating an article, and it is far from meeting the criteria, then it might be best to delist it for now and re-nominate it when it meets the criteria again. My concerns are not just a couple uncited statements, but several sentences and paragraphs with uncited prose, including uncited block quotes. I also am concerned that some sections need to be expanded, such as "Fideism and rejection of natural theology". If anyone is willing to work on this, I am happy to re-review when the concerns are addressed. If no one is willing to work on it, I will nominate it to GAR in the hopes that someone will adopt the article and improve the article. I have added cn tags to the article to help highlight where citations are missing. Z1720 (talk) 14:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720: thank you for making some of your concerns more specific and concrete, because that can potentially help. As to the GA status I still doubt this article ever really deserved it. I see it as being in a different phase of development for now.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:51, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: I am happy to do a more thorough review once the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 19:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: Are you still planning on working on this, or should this go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 03:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720: my apologies if I gave the wrong impression. My feeling is that this article is too far from GA level to stress over, and it should loose that status without further ado. I don't think any push to gain it can be very constructive in the short run because this article is too far from that level, and needs a different type of editing effort which is difficult to trigger like this. It is in a building up phase, and needs people interested in the topic to find time and energy. In terms of concrete feedback what you've mentioned so far is the section Fideism and rejection of natural theology which you think should be expanded. I am not intending to work on that at the moment. Your remark about unsourced materials is a bit strange to me. I don't think every sentence needs a footnote, so if you see specific ones then maybe you can tag them. I also don't see blockquotes without citations except in the Fine-tuned Universe section. I am also not intending to work on that. These sections can't be done quickly by me. (I did not create either of these sections FWIW.) In any case I think many bits of this article were probably meant as placeholders for future improvement, by people interested in the topic, and there is in principle nothing wrong with that. More concrete feedback or tags might draw more editors to help, but basically when an article is at this growing and forming phase the main thing to remember is that we are relying on a limited number of potential volunteers who are interested in this topic, and they have no deadline.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)