Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit]

Scope of the Project, Notability Rules (clarification), and Syntax for the Watchlist are linked here: Watchlist Talk Page. A discussion on the types of chapter status is here: F&S Project talk page, Archive #7.

Cleanup project (updated)

[edit]

The main list of infobox issues can be found at Category:Fraternity articles with infobox fraternity issues.

  1. missing image size - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing image size (87)
  2. missing |member badge= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing member badge (767)
  3. missing |chapters= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing chapters (54)
  4. missing |members= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing members (829)
  5. missing |website= - Category:Pages using infobox fraternity with missing website (148)
  6. missing crest or coat of arms - tracked at petscan
  7. Missing country
  8. Primary sources - tracked at petscan
  9. Has bibliography but lacks inline citations - tracked at petscan
  10. Needs color boxes (Helpful link, has colors, flags, and addresses of Baltic, Scandinavian, German, and Polish fraternities)

Rublamb (talk) 20:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Portal Diskussion:Studentenverbindung

[edit]

I've reached out to the Discussion group over on dewiki at de:Portal_Diskussion:Studentenverbindung#Request_knowledge_from_english_language_wiki_on_Studentenverbindung and got some really great answers to things. And as I said before, I'm thinking of creating an Template:Infobox_Studentenverbindung equivalent to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorlage:Infobox_Studentenverbindung if I can understand all the fields.Naraht (talk) 19:42, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After working on several Studentenverbindung articles recently, I found that what looked like an infobox for many was actually a code-generated table. All are now changed to "Infobox fraternity". I don't think we need a new infobox, but suggest adding "Zirkel" as a field option to Infobox fraternity. (Color for Couleur is a reasonable translation). Everything else works as is. We just need to create some instructions or at least answer these questions"
  1. Are we going to use color boxes or ribbon approximations?
  2. How do we determine the correct terms for emphasis; i.e. linking to the German word article for dueling, non-dueling, no couleurs, Catholic, and Christian? Or do we use the English translation?
  3. Do we use "Infobox fraternity" for individual fraternities and their umbrella groups? If so, what is the correct type for the umbrella group? The groups that used to have "Infobox organization" were called "trade association" under type. Umbrella group seems pretty informal.
Also, most articles use the foreign language version of the fraternity's name, rather than the English translation. Do we want a translation at the top in parenthesis or should we have a field/free field for the English translation? I struggle with which is correct here. Just consider, why are we using the German word Studentenverbindung instead of its translation? Is there a precedent in other parts of Wikipedia for continuing to use the foreign word instead of its translation? Rublamb (talk) 18:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article cleanup needed

[edit]

One of our main articles, Fraternities and sororities, has had a factual accuracy tag since March 2023. I just added a few sources, which is part of the issue. Since others have worked on this article in the past, you may have a better idea of what content is questionable. Rublamb (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a discussion on the articles Talkpage about moving this to Collegiate fraternities and sororities. Rublamb (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We just discovered History of North American fraternities and sororities which was off the radar because it lacked WikiProject tags. The two articles relate in many ways. I could see a merger of the two and/or splitting the history and cultural content into two articles. It would be a big project since these are both long articles. Rublamb (talk) 23:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Awareness builder

[edit]

Editors with ties to some of the GLOs -- some of the bigger social fraternities and APO are examples -- brand their User pages with small banner tags noting membership. It might be a helpful long-term objective for the Project team to create these, one for each society in their colors, that they might be picked up by editors (typically, new editors) to drive Project participation. We could pin them to each Talk page, with instructions for use. Jax MN (talk) 17:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Userboxes/Collegiate sororities and fraternities Rublamb (talk) 02:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated the userbox template list on our Watch List so that it is easier to see which groups already have a userbox template. (I still need to check our list against the one linked above). However, some existing userbox templates are basically unreadable because of a lack of contrasting colors.
If we are going to add these to all articles relating to the GLO, my suggestion is the horizontal template that nests under the WikiProjects, rather than the verticle box that floats to the right of the page. I don't recommend putting the userbox code in a TalkPage comment as that could be auto-archived. Does anyone need to see examples of the two formats before commenting? I am willing to work on inserting the templates if there is agreement on style. Does anyone volunteer for template cleanup duty? Rublamb (talk) 18:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Naming articles for Latvian, Estonia, Russian, and German groups

[edit]

We need to get a handle on naming conventions for student associations and corporations articles. We seem to have a mix of full foreign-language names, the Korp! nickname, the nickname without Korp!, and English translations. When working in this area yesterday, I found little consistency with Latvian and Estonian group names--the English Wikipedia article's names typically do not match the German Wikipedia name, sometimes using the formal name when that is not in use in German Wikipedia or the group's website. Also, the English translations may or may not be correct. This can eventually be fixed with redirects, but I am struggling to figure out the best common name format so we can be consistent across all articles. Refer to List of student corporations in Latvia and List of fraternities and sororities in Estonia for examples of the article name variations. (Note that I have linked to German Wikipedia if I could not find an article in the English version). Rublamb (talk) 22:13, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As these are (or ought to be) treated more comprehensively in their native language Wikis, I think we should include a link to the original language article and use a consistent naming structure, probably the 'full' name, not nickname. As long as these are treated consistently within the English language Wikipedia, I would be amenable to whatever of the options you list that you determine works best. Jax MN (talk) 22:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In most cases, using the full name is like naming an article "The Grand International Sisterhood of Moo Moo Moo, Incorporated", rather than "Moo Moo Moo" or "GIS Moo Moo Moo". (The later being what many of these corporations use on their websites, with "GIS" being common identifier for groups of that type). Since we already follow Wikipedia's naming guidelines and use the common name with US GLOs, I am pretty sure the article's title should be a shortened. It would be helpful to have a member of one of these groups or someone who speaks the language help us naviage what are and are not essential parts of the full name. For example, using "Korp!" may be akin to saying "Chi Psi Fratenity", with Korp translating as the unnecessary word "fraternity". Rublamb (talk) 23:25, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honor Society Museum

[edit]

www.honormuseum.org might be useful. With https://honorsocietymuseum.org/all/ being a list of those groups with a specific page about them. Right now we have *one* article that uses information from there: Rho Kappa.Naraht (talk) 00:14, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At one point, someone replaced some of the dead links to ACHS member pages with links to this website. However, I don't know if it is connected to ACHS. Rublamb (talk) 02:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I *really* don't think it is, diving into it leads to https://www.honorsociety.org/ , which I get really bad vibes from. "Honor society for all" which looking at the site means less than nothing. I was always looking into an honor society because it gave a good dental plan.Naraht (talk) 03:26, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had the same read on honorsociety.org. It seems like a for-profit website, possibly getting paid for click-throughs to honor society websites. It would be helpful if the "museum" were a reliable source because many of the societies formed in the late 20th and 21st centuries need more sources since they were never in Bairds. Is this a reliable source? Where do we think their content is coming from? Rublamb (talk) 16:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Found this disclaimer: "HonorSociety.org Inc., Honor Society Foundation Inc., and its president Michael Moradian were sued in federal court by PTK on April 20, 2022 for False Designation of Origin, Trade Dress Infringement, and Unfair Competition. Honor Society and Michael Moradian countersued and are presently defendants/counter-plaintiffs in this litigation. Litigation is still ongoing and all claims made regarding this case are just allegations against the parties". Rublamb (talk) 23:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Updated list: notability or no ref tags

[edit]
Delete: I added two sources but can't find significant coverage. Content has sources now, but mostly from its website. It is now included in both the African American and LGBTQ list articles, with a source. Rublamb (talk) 07:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Not even sig coverage by the university
Delete: can't find secondary sources Rublamb (talk) 20:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with List of Greek umbrella organizations
Delete: no off-campus sources, founded in 2007 so no history to look for
Move: the law firm does not meet notability for an organization. However, there are enough sources for an article on the Anti-Hazing Hotline. So, one option is to move the article and subject, with a redirect for the law firm which manages the hotline. Or, we can go with a new article on the hotline. The newsletter, the original focus of the article, is not significant.
Delete: I found some articles in the campus newspaper but no significant coverage elsewhere. It is now included in List of social sororities and women's fraternities Rublamb (talk) 23:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete?: I added some sources and expanded/updated the chapter list. However, all of the sources I found are clearly from press releases. There is almost zero presence of this group on its host colleges' websites; I even found one that lists this as a non-recognized organization. A Reddit discussion notes that the group has used a copy of UNC's letterhead without any affiliation. Now that I have expanded the chapter list, I hate to say this--but it does not really meet notability. I suggest including it in the Honor society article but going for an AfD unless one good source shows up. Rublamb (talk) 01:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into College of William & Mary secret societies; I've searched the state library, the VA newspaper database, and the usual places and can't find off-campus sources. The logo and some info seem to be pulled from its Facebook page. Rublamb (talk) 22:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://gpa.eastview.com/crl/elmundo/?a=d&d=mndo19571224-01.1.8&srpos=1&e=------195-en-25--1--img-txIN-%22Zeta+Phi+Beta%22----1957----- this article from 1957 from El Mundo mentions it was founded

Harvard College social clubs

[edit]

IMO, all groups mentioned in the Harvard College social clubs List below should be in a category under cat:Harvard and cat:Student_societies_in_the_United_States . comments? Naraht (talk) 16:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense to me. We need some consistency in how we handle collegaite senior societies and final clubs. Rublamb (talk) 19:44, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For now at Harvard one cat, but I could see a cat for only the senior societies later (don't quite understand the difference between the senior societies and final clubs.
Done. Naraht (talk) 06:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they are the same thing. Final club seems to be used at Yale. Rublamb (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know in some places that there is a difference between groups that are selected into multi-year groups vs. those where one class of seniors selects the next group of incoming seniors and as such the group on campus only consists of seniors. Is that the difference at Harvard?Naraht (talk) 16:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An article in the NYT says that a Harvard final club is the "final social club before graduation (having already passed through a freshman club and a waiting club)." So, it is the same as a senior society, an honorary only open to seniors. This also means that these groups can be divided into freshmen, waiting, and final clubs. Fun fact: the clubs were formed when Harvard banned GLOs. However, GLOs are now allowed on campus. Rublamb (talk) 03:22, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects

[edit]

I have not found all of the redirects that lack a WP tag, but I have found many redirects that should be deleted. These are spelling or capitalization mistakes, unhelpful article title phrasing, etc. I know this is not a priority project but I am sharing here so that we will not forget the need. Rublamb (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of potential redirects for Discussion

[edit]

So far *just* those containing Alpha, from either a title search with / alpha/ or looking at the section starting with Alpha in Category:Redirects from miscapitalisations (and the one to *possibly* keep due to being a short name)

Fair use images

[edit]

There has been some push back on photos of badges that were added as fair use images. I don't know how far this will go but I have added WP Fraternities and Sororities to the talkpage of all crests, coat of arms, flags, badges, and pledge badge images that I have found to ensure that we will know of proposed deletions. Moving forward, please create the talkpage with WP for fair use images so that we will be alerted of proposed deletions. Rublamb (talk) 04:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

I'm not sure it is policy or not, but I work under the following rule. For a specialty GLO, especially one that is in a graduate school like Law or Medicine, I link to the specific graduate school if there is a page, so for a GLO for law schools, if University of Guam School of Law exists, then that is the link rather than University of Guam and I don't even pipe link to make it show as University of Guam. Feelings? Naraht (talk) 14:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the other question is if the GLO died in 1950 and the University of Guam School of Law was renamed as John Filbert school of Law in 2002 whether to pipe trick it to say University of Guam School of Law or not.Naraht (talk) 14:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I agree. However, if I am creating a table for a preexisting list that is already set up with the main college's name, I don't always update the institution name because you never know for sure without going back to the original source. I just worked on a list for a group that was a weird hybrid of medical schools and regular colleges; the GLO's own list included many regular college names because it served both medical and pre-medical students at one time. I looked at the date of formation of some of the professional schools and found that some were established after the charter date of the chapter. There was no source to confirm that the chapter moved locations or ever existed during the era of the professional school. In that instance, it seemed best to go with the source and list the main college name. In other words, follow the source when possible.
School name changes can really be an issue, especially with defunct chapters and groups. Many of the older professional school names do not have redirects. If the chapter list is long and many redirects are needed, I don't always take the time to create the redirects. Previously, we have discussed using the school name at the time of closure of the chapter or at the time of its formation, but not updating to the modern/current institutional name. This means we would not update the Guam name and, technically, should add a redirect. I freely admit to be lazy about redirects for college divisions; I tend to focus on main institutional name changes. Rublamb (talk) 17:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I prefer that the school name is linked to the subordinate graduate school article, if there is one. Readers can always click to read about the main school, from there. Once a subordinate school page is written it is unlikely to be rolled back, and merged. Jax MN (talk) 20:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the link should be made through a redirect so that our articles can have the historically correct name. In this instance, many of the chapters predated (and went defunct) decades before the current graduate schools were named or established. In some cases, half a century or more. Furthermore, just because the fraternity says it had a chapter at General State University does not mean that we can infer that the chapter was actually located at General State Medical College which was established in another city decades later. Some of these early professional fraternities were not just for graduate students but were open to anyone interested in the field, including undergraduates. I have come across two of these medical GLOs in the past two weeks; one which still has undergraduate and graduate chapters (and not always chapters for both levels at the same university). If the organization says the chapter was at General State University, I think it is a major jump to change that name and link to General State Medical College without a source or further investigation. Rublamb (talk) 21:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think in the chapter list, the current school name should be preferred. Where a chapter was first established when that school had an earlier name (Duke, Samford, Trine...), where it isn't obvious, I've often added the other school name in parentheses. Now, for FOUNDING schools, this implies a more likely interest in the historical context, not just "Is this fraternity at my school?" type of inquiries. Therefore, in the lede, historical summary and infobox, both names could be denoted. I guess I'd judge each case separately, based on how obvious the shift was. Jax MN (talk) 21:32, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is possibly a difference between a current/active organization and a defunct organization. For the latter, my caution is that the current professional college may not be at the same location and may have no connection to a former chapter. For example, Duke and Wake Forest both moved their entire campus. SUNY formed a medical college in a different city. If a chapter was short-lived, a newly named or newly established graduate school and its location may be incorrect. Thus, it would be inaccurate to link to a modern medical school.
Here's a random example that I came across the other day. An early women's honor society had a chapter at Newcomb College. Recently, Newcomb merged with Tulane. Would we skip a link to the article H. Sophie Newcomb Memorial College and replace the chapter list with Tulane? If the chapter is active, I would use Tulane with an efn about Newcomb. If the chapter went dormant while Newcomb was still operating, I would use Newcomb and would either follow your example of (now Tulane) or include that info in an efn. Obviously, it would be historically inaccurate to say that an all-male college had a women's society. Rublamb (talk) 22:34, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Naraht: Should have said, I am pretty sure I know the article you are thinking about. I was lazy and did not fix the data when moving it to a table. No offense will be taken if you make corrections or add pipe links. Around the same time, I had worked on another article where chapters were at both medical and regular colleges (for pre-med students)——so I was hyper-aware of the need to use caution and not make assumptions. Rublamb (talk) 16:49, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And now, I can't remember which one I was talking about :(, I'm pretty sure it was Med schools or Dental schools given I used law schools in the example...Naraht (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was a medical frat. I can't remember either but will track it down. LOL. Rublamb (talk) 17:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was List of Alpha Omega Alpha chapters. Cheers. Rublamb (talk) 17:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

[edit]

I have started a new page Wikipedia:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Library for GLO references, now linked through a tab on the WP mainpage. If you have some favorities, please add to the list. Rublamb (talk) 04:24, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Inactive essay

[edit]

The essay Wikipedia:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities/Notability is noted as dormant because the discussion about it ended before it was approve. Do we want to revisit it? Rublamb (talk) 11:14, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I commented on that article's talk page. Thanks, Rublamb, for the extensive organizational work you have done on the project's pages. Jax MN (talk) 21:46, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, the NFRAT article focuses on Greek Letter Organizations (or closely related like FarmHouse) based at colleges. The recent expansion of the WikiProject to include groups in Eastern Europe, in Africa or were never college related (Loyal Order of the Moose, etc.) means that we almost need to start from Scratch (and based on that, it may make sense to move groups like Loyal Order of the Moose to a different Wikiproject.Naraht (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In its current form, the essay does not set limitations on the type of fraternal organization or a requirement to have a Greek letter name or a collegiate connection. The article is inclusive of "fraternities, sororities, and other Greek letter organizations" and "college Secret societies and student clubs". General and community-based fraternal organizations are covered by the terms "fraternity" and "sorority". The recent WP expansions that are not specifically mentioned (and should be) are honor and literary societies. Defining notability and the scope of the WP are two different topics that should be covered in two different essays/pages. Rublamb (talk) 00:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Naraht brings up a reasonable point where other editors may inquire as to scope.
To summarize for readers, here are the cut-off points which logically could make sense for us.
1. Every notable group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, FarmHouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies, AND those in the Masonic family. This includes community-based fraternities, and non-collegiate military fraternities. We could aim to identify these globally.
2. North American only: Every notable group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, Farmhouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies, AND those in the Masonic family. This includes community-based fraternities, and non-collegiate military fraternities. BUT limited to North America.
3. N.A. and collegiate only: Every notable collegiate or once-collegiate group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, Farmhouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies. DISCLUDING those in the Masonic family. DISCLUDING community-based fraternities, and DISCLUDING non-collegiate military fraternities. Limited to North America.
There is a dormant project for Collegiate secret societies in North America, and a vigorous List of Masonic Grand Lodges (start there, many sublinks. We've only scratched the surface of these). But to my knowledge, there ISN'T a project for literary societies. We've picked up the collegiate ones, but there are examples of non-collegiate literary societies that have existed in the US since 1849 which we've not picked up. Nor is there a project or list of ancillary organizations to the Masonic fraternity: We (Freemasons) call them either Appendant Bodies or Subordinate Bodies. There are many, many hundreds: These include the Shrine, the Scottish Rite (which in some countries is a de facto grand lodge), and stretching further, non-Masonic groups like the Odd Fellows or Woodmen of the World. There is no home for military fraternities, besides us. Nor for community-based groups like those in Indiana (Tri Kappa) or the various new LGBTQ groups, mostly non-collegiate. We started with the Puerto Rican and Philippine collegiate fraternities, added fencing fraternities in Europe, then the gang-like Nigerian confraternities. We are looking for consensus on where our project draws the line of inclusion.
Which path do we take? We could blaze a trail to be trackers of ALL fraternal activity globally, tracking every group in option #1 above. This appears to be our current heading. In this, we'd aim to create the definitive list. Not voting yet, but I personally like the clarity this provides, so that groups choosing a name don't tread on others with the same name. Or, Naraht may be right, that a split is necessary; maybe the Masonic project needs a push to create a list of their subordinate / auxiliary groups. There may be some 5,000 individual Degrees, jurisdictions or groupings of degrees that have current or recent activity and which are part of the Masonic world. Counting just grand lodges alone, (first three degrees, some geographical bounds) these number maybe 2,000 themselves. That would offload some of our work.
FWIW, merely on grounds of clarity I would rather not lose track of Greek letter groups outside of North America. I'm more comfortable offloading the Masonic entities, because they have an active project group. I could be convinced to limit our scope to collegiate only. Jax MN (talk) 03:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really want to keep these as two conversations and projects--scope and notability. The Notability essay should be fairly easy as we are just supplementing the well defined Wikipedia guidelines. I am going to restart scope as a different thread. Rublamb (talk) 03:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to circle back to this. @Jax MN, could you merge your more recent list into the essay? I like the idea of this content being in an essay, rather than a Talkpage discussion. We will be able to link the essay through a tab, making it more visible. And I still think we can update the essay without bringing in the wider conversation on what is included under WP:FRAT or, at least, with an agreement to ignore that issue for now. If we are not going to update the essay, it should be AfD, but my preference is to update it. Rublamb (talk) 16:32, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will. My regular duties interfere, but I'll get to this. Good idea to make it a tab. Jax MN (talk) 21:31, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP Scope

[edit]

This continues the discussion started above. I have copied some relevant comments here. Rublamb (talk) 03:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The recent expansion of the WikiProject to include groups in Eastern Europe, in Africa or were never college related (Loyal Order of the Moose, etc.) means that we almost need to start from Scratch (and based on that, it may make sense to move groups like Loyal Order of the Moose to a different Wikiproject.Naraht (talk) 23:41, 30 November 2024 (UTC)Reply
Naraht brings up a reasonable point where other editors may inquire as to scope. To summarize for readers, here are the cut-off points which logically could make sense for us.
1. Every notable group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, FarmHouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies, AND those in the Masonic family. This includes community-based fraternities, and non-collegiate military fraternities. We could aim to identify these globally.
2. North American only: Every notable group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, Farmhouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies, AND those in the Masonic family. This includes community-based fraternities, and non-collegiate military fraternities. BUT limited to North America.
3. N.A. and collegiate only: Every notable collegiate or once-collegiate group, past or current, which has or had a Greek Letter name, and those operating as such. (Acacia, Farmhouse), AND literary societies, AND secret societies. DISCLUDING those in the Masonic family. DISCLUDING community-based fraternities, and DISCLUDING non-collegiate military fraternities. Limited to North America.
There is a dormant project for Collegiate secret societies in North America, and a vigorous List of Masonic Grand Lodges (start there, many sublinks. We've only scratched the surface of these). But to my knowledge, there ISN'T a project for literary societies. We've picked up the collegiate ones, but there are examples of non-collegiate literary societies that have existed in the US since 1849 which we've not picked up. Nor is there a project or list of ancillary organizations to the Masonic fraternity: We (Freemasons) call them either Appendant Bodies or Subordinate Bodies. There are many, many hundreds: These include the Shrine, the Scottish Rite (which in some countries is a de facto grand lodge), and stretching further, non-Masonic groups like the Odd Fellows or Woodmen of the World. There is no home for military fraternities, besides us. Nor for community-based groups like those in Indiana (Tri Kappa) or the various new LGBTQ groups, mostly non-collegiate. We started with the Puerto Rican and Philippine collegiate fraternities, added fencing fraternities in Europe, then the gang-like Nigerian confraternities. We are looking for consensus on where our project draws the line of inclusion.
Which path do we take? We could blaze a trail to be trackers of ALL fraternal activity globally, tracking every group in option #1 above. This appears to be our current heading. In this, we'd aim to create the definitive list. Not voting yet, but I personally like the clarity this provides, so that groups choosing a name don't tread on others with the same name. Or, Naraht may be right, that a split is necessary; maybe the Masonic project needs a push to create a list of their subordinate / auxiliary groups. There may be some 5,000 individual Degrees, jurisdictions or groupings of degrees that have current or recent activity and which are part of the Masonic world. Counting just grand lodges alone, (first three degrees, some geographical bounds) these number maybe 2,000 themselves. That would offload some of our work.
FWIW, merely on grounds of clarity I would rather not lose track of Greek letter groups outside of North America. I'm more comfortable offloading the Masonic entities, because they have an active project group. I could be convinced to limit our scope to collegiate only. Jax MN (talk) 03:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is complicated. If we cut to just collegiate groups but keep the same WP name, we would be showing a bias suggesting that only college fraternities are "true fraternities" and that community-based groups are somehow inferior. Same with limiting the geographic area to America or North America; I cannot think of a greater way to show a pro-American point of view in an encyclopedia that is supposed to serve all English speakers. That being said, after working on many different types of student organizations currently under the WP, some are a better fit than others to the concept of a fraternity and could be dropped. In the past, I have questioned the inclusion of community-based American GLOs, European academic corporations, and Nigerian confraternities but have been willing to work on these articles following WikiProject discussions to include them. Some general thoughts:
  • Masonic: I don't favor adopting Masonic groups/articles in full because of the other WP, but don't have an issue with some overlap of a few key articles about the main groups if we are going to retain community-based fraternal organizations. Or we can boldly go and exclude because this info is covered elsewhere.
  • General fraternities: Many, many general fraternities from the late 19th and early 20th centuries are not Masonic. Most are defunct and do not have Wikipedia articles but do have secondary sources if someone wants to create an article. These belong if the WP is generically fraternal, but I could also see cutting off non-collegiate groups and sending them over to WP Organizations. Note: unless the WP and its main overview articles change to indicate collegiate-only, we will continue to have other editors link these groups to the WP and its lists.
  • Literary societies: There are some literary societies that became fraternities. However, the early literary societies and the still active groups are not fraternal in the traditional sense. I would be in favor of cutting all that don't have a direct connection to a fraternity or sorority, even if they have a Greek letter name. They would then fall under WP Organization, just like any other random student group. If we keep them, there are potentially a ton of articles to write.
  • Academic associations/Student corporations: With their ethnocentric, political, and militaristic (or Catholic) slant, these groups are an uncomfortable fit with traditional fraternities. Almost all of them went dormant at their original college and functioned as expat political arms, reforming after the fall of the Soviet Union. This is the first category I would cut from our list, even though it means changing many infoboxes.
  • Nigerian confraternities: Most are based at colleges, have chapters, and all the trimmings of traditional GLOs. However, their slide into crime sets these apart from traditional GLOs. However, some are beginning to disassociate the college division from the community/crime organization, making it harder to discount these groups. But, since these have a distinct culture and name, we could easily say these don't fit. As the group expert on this topic, I am good either way.
  • Other countries: if it is a collegiate GLO/fraternity/sorority, it should be included, regardless of country. However, this does not mean that every variation of foreign student organizations falls under the WP. Just those that are actual GLOs.
  • Greek letter names: Just because a group has a Greek letter name, does not mean it fits under the WP umbrella. Just saying...
I am realizing we should probably discuss each category separately so that the archived record will be easier to follow. On the other hand, we could simply identify the articles that we potentially want to drop and discuss those. Rublamb (talk) 05:23, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having said all of that, I don't have an issue with continuing to include all fraternities and similar student groups except the full Mason article collection (which is covered by another WP). Compared to most WikiProjects, our article list is very small. Also, we may attract new editors to our group as we expand the number of articles or potential articles. Thus, I see the benefits of continued expansion and narrowing the focus. Rublamb (talk) 16:20, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Opinion needed

[edit]

There are two discussions at the bottom of User talk:Rublamb about recent work I have made on several articles about a group of related Latino fraternities. Although my main edits were to fix non-standard chapter lists, I also did a copy edit and added needed sources to these articles. Can someone take and look and decide if these discussion should be moved to the WP talkpage or perhaps added to the talkpage of the specific fraternity? I don't want these coversations which include a suggestion for a new WP subgroup and a volunteer to help with Spanish translations, to be lost. Rublamb (talk) 17:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a sorority?

[edit]

Yesharah Society is a social organizatino for former LDS female missionaries. It has some connections to colleges, but was mostly community-based. I believe it has the WP:F&S tag because of its affiliation with The Friars Club, which later became the LDS Church fraternity Delta Phi Kappa. However, I am not seeing enough evidence to prove that Yesharah was a sorority. It is called a "social organization" in LDS records, while Friars Club/Delta Phi Kappa is called a "fraternity". But I wanted other opinions before removing it from our list. Rublamb (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing it treated that way by the Banyan (BYU's yearbook). Would checking the yearbooks of the other Utah Universities with chapters make sense? (And the fact they were called chapters still makes me wonder.Naraht (talk) 21:58, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Previously, I checked a couple of yearbooks looking for an image. I found it under organizations, rather than being in the GLO section. I don't know if other campuses had a chapter but it might be worth looking. Rublamb (talk) 22:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on whether there was a fraternity section in that yearbook that included Delta Phi Kappa. Do we have an example of that?Naraht (talk) 00:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can look. I think Yesharah had closed its collegiate chapters before Friars Club became a fraternity, so that may or may not work. Rublamb (talk) 22:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notorious members

[edit]

Several news sources (CNN, NYT, CBS) are reporting that Luigi Mangione, arrested for the Murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson is a member of Phi Kappa Psi. Several questions. 1) Would still go on List of Phi Kappa Psi members? Or wait until charged or convicted. 2) Any problem with making a new section? I haven't seen a member list with Notorious members, any examples would be welcome. 3) Pushback in similar situations from the Fraternity/Sorority, has anyone seen this/dealt with this? 4) In the event of a hazing death, if the convicted perpetrators are named in the media, would they equally be included?Naraht (talk) 22:09, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have included criminals in the notable section of both fraternity and colleges, including mobsters and serial killers. I don't think it needs its own section; I usually put them in the miscellaneous or other section of the notables list. Although, I once had enough names to create a Crime section under notables. Normally I would say wait to include someone of a crime until there is a conviction. But this case is so high profile that I am not against including him as a "suspect in the murder of..." as long as he has a Wikipedia article. If he doesn't have a Wikipedia article, he probably doens't meet the guidelines for Notability yet. Rublamb (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, many criminals like that end up with WP:BLP1E applying and as such end up as redirects to the crime. For example: Scott Lee Peterson is a redirect to Murder of Laci Peterson. I'd be inclined to include those with such redirects, but I'm not sure.Naraht (talk) 11:51, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would be okay listing someone that has a redirect in another article. I also don't have a problem redlinking someone with references that prove notability for an article, such as The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, or major magazines. That is within Wikipedia's guidelines. The main issue with noting someone who is a suspect in an active investigation, is that being known for a single event may not meet notability, even with sources. Wikipedia is also pretty strong on its policy that regular, non-celebrity people have a right to privacy. Rublamb (talk) 21:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Concilio Interfraternitario de Puerto Rico

[edit]

I went ahead and created Concilio Interfraternitario de Puerto Rico citing 3 articles from El Mundo, there are a lot more but those mostly mention donations or tournaments. Could not find any other citations, there is a Page in Facebook, with post and a logo, but I am not sure if we can cite it. El Johnson (talk) 20:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great! It is fantastic to have the help of someone who can translate El Mundo. There are some allowable ways to use Facebook as a source, but I try to avoid it as it can be red flag for deletionists. However, we can use the logo from Facebook under Fair Use. I will go ahead and upload it to the article. Rublamb (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a copy of newspaper article in their Facebook, here. Maybe that also has useful details. Rublamb (talk) 22:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alpha Beta Chi

[edit]

Looks like only Alpha Beta Chi lacks an article of the CIPR. Originally deleted as a copyvio, but found a good chunk of it in a Puerto Rico Senate Resolution. Is this a good place to start? https://senado.pr.gov/document_vault/session_diary/1649/document/082301.pdf Naraht (talk) 16:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The page is protected and only an administrator can create the article El Johnson (talk) 18:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Eljohnson15 the admin in question hasn't been active in over a decade, so reached out to an admin that I've had some contact with before who is active.Naraht (talk) 21:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who suggested posting to WP:AN, which I did.Naraht (talk) 21:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on WP:AN, the block has been listed. Rublamb (talk) 23:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
itym, lifted...Naraht (talk) 09:49, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NA class and mass update

[edit]

Some Wikipedia-wide change was made or someone ran a new bot that found articles that had unnecessary classes in WikiProject headers, such as "redirect". However, it also put 90 WP:FRAT articles into the category NA (see List of Articles on the WP main page). Previously, the only articles listed under NA actually had "NA" as their class--I had corrected all of those. However, this new batch has an empty class after the mass update, with a a note indicating that this change has been made. Does anyone know anything about this update? Rublamb (talk) 16:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Example please? We can probably track down the bot.Naraht (talk) 17:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like Achoth and Alpha Sigma Beta Fraternity were both updated by the same bot. Rublamb (talk) 17:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Almost a year ago, I think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/EnterpriseyBot_10 Naraht (talk) 17:47, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have an issue with what the bot does, just mystified as to why articles updated by it are suddenly showing as having Class = NA, when their class is empty. I guess I will wait 24 hours to see if this changes with the next update to our list. Rublamb (talk) 17:51, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uh... they're not NA-class, they're NA-importance. Primefac (talk) 17:55, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would make sense and may be why there is an issue. However, in this case, NA shows up as a "Quality" in the table, along with other classes. And, the bot updated the class of the article on its talk page, not its importance. Rublamb (talk) 17:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We ec'd when you left your previous message, but I suspect a cache issue or something in WPBS itself that caused it; I null-edited a half-dozen pages and they all dropped out of Category:NA-Class Fraternities and Sororities articles (and I suspect, will stop showing in the table when the next report is run). Primefac (talk) 18:30, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I cleared out all of the article-space NA's, all that is left are userboxes, which should probably be considered template-class. Primefac (talk) 18:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That is a more manageable number to manually updated. I will fix those that remain. Rublamb (talk) 18:42, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alpha Beta Chi

[edit]

the Greek Letters both in the lede and infobox look italicized in addition to being bold, any ideas? Naraht (talk) 17:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No idea. I deleted both and recreated the language template. That fixed it. Rublamb (talk) 18:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think before it had the latin letters A, B & X rather than Greek Letters. Wierd side effect, but something to keep an eye on.Naraht (talk) 18:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alpha Omicron Sigma

[edit]

It appears that the sorority uses an Omicron with a bar above it, and while the article has a latin O with a bar in it, I don't see an Omicron with a bar example anywhere in Greek diacritics, so I'm not sure what we should have in the {{lang|grc|xxx}} to make it entirely greek.Naraht (talk) 20:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That may simply be someone's attempt to ensure it is pronounced with the long "O" sound, in English. Jax MN (talk) 20:50, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This has officially become Puerto Rico day. When I look at their graphic, it looks like a lower case Omicron to me. We could skip the language template in the infobox so that a mix of Greek and Latin letters can be used OR just not worry about it and use the plain Omicron. If you like, there could be a redirect with the mixed letters. Somewhat related, I just found that the article title for Ricardo Alegría, the founder of the PR fraternity Alpha Beta Chi, auto updates to Alegria as the article title--this is not a redirect. So I guess somewhere there is a MOS guideline indicating that is is okay to ignore foreign letter preferences. Rublamb (talk) 22:16, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True, though in Greek, Omicron would be used for short and Omega for long. (and "Oh"micron sounds horrible to me). This leaves it as even a wierder mix than Chi Hereot.Naraht (talk)
I think i has been more like Puerto Rico week in the project lol. I don't edit as much as I used to in this last decade, but I have sort of being looking after those articles for the last couple of years, at least deleting vandalism and such. If it is not too much trouble, could the project take a look at the errors in the citations in the Phi Sigma Alpha article? El Johnson (talk) 20:06, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

lang template

[edit]

I used a search on insource:/\{\{[Ll]ang\|grc\|[Α-Ωα-ω]*[A-Z]/ -insource:/\{\{lang\|grc\|ΧH\}\}/ fraternity (and with fraternity replaced with sorority and honor society) to look for bad uses of the grc lang template and fix them. In some cases, it was a change from grc to grc-latn, which is used for transliteration. Naraht (talk) 20:56, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So it is okay to have a mix of Greek and Latin letters as long as we indicate grc-latn in the language template? I am going to add the list of language codes to our reference page, although it does not seem to include grc-latn. I still need to address the letter names of the European groups--if their name is in Estonia, for example, shouldn't those letters also be in Estonian? File that under other things I have chosen to ignore when working on articles and our update project. Rublamb (talk) 22:22, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
grc-latn should be used for transliterations, so in

Φιλοσοφία Βίου Κυβερνήτη or in Latin letters Philosophia Biou Kybernētēs, which loosely translated to English means "Love of learning is the guide of life"

, the "Φιλοσοφία Βίου Κυβερνήτη" should get grc and the "Philosophia Biou Kybernētēs" should get grc-latn.Naraht (talk) 00:07, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category needed

[edit]

I think we need a category or two for honor society founders and presidents. I know we can create a category for each organization that can also be used for members but I have run into a couple of society's with just one person who needs a link. Rublamb (talk) 22:03, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

subcatted to what cat?Naraht (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it could go under Category:Honor Societies. However, if we follow the examples of Category:College fraternity founders and Category:College sorority founders, it would not be a subcat. Rublamb (talk) 01:51, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Category:College honor society founders has existed for a while and has 5 entries.Naraht (talk) 03:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Guess I should have looked harder. Thanks. Rublamb (talk) 03:08, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have added it to our watchlist and also added WP:Frat to its talkpage. Rublamb (talk) 03:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Fraternities_and_Sororities&oldid=1264281714"